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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's a skeptic zone podcast episode

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number 601 for the 19th of April 2020

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Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia and on the other side

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of the world this week's special co-host

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it's Celestia ward all the way in Las

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Vegas hi Celestia hi Richard how are you

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doing I'm doing really well considering

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all things considering Sydney's not

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doing too bad I must say I mean there

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are a lot of people in a very tough

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situation of course with the

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unemployment but by and large I think

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Australia's not doing as bad as many

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other places in the world what's life

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like in Las Vegas under these conditions

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and I really can't imagine Las Vegas

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being anything other than bubbling and

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crazy well it's always gonna be a little

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bit crazy here but yeah you were saying

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that Australia is coping fairly well so

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I take it you're your main source of

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income and entire reason for being

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hasn't completely drained away well

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Sydney Australia is quite diverse in

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that respect but I can understand what

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you're saying I mean Las Vegas is is a

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tourist town yeah yeah we almost of most

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of the people I know certainly make

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their money due to the tourist income or

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indirectly because of the tourist income

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and we have no tourists now I gotta say

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I'm very pleased with the powers-that-be

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that they decided to shut things down as

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early as they did I honestly thought

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they would be holdouts and try to keep

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everything open and all the money

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flowing in and all the tourists drinking

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their martinis until the very last

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moment and so I was really bracing for a

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terrible just a terrible outbreak here

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because it could really spread in our

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casino and our casino floors are pretty

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packed with people all the time Wow

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I mean again it's you're right and on

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every time I've been there for the

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amazing meeting or what have you it's

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just been people people people let's do

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something crazy yes so I am more than

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happy to sit this out in fact there's a

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there's some local wrangling going on

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between our mayor Carolyn Goodman the

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mayor of Las Vegas is our

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viewing with the governor of Nevada the

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mayor wants to open things up right away

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and the governor wants to like hold off

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and just take the natural steps you

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would need to take scientifically to

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make sure we aren't going to end up with

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a surge of cases mmm week after we open

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the what's making the news here as I

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record various protests across the

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United States people out in their pickup

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trucks and their big flags and their

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overalls railing and saying how dare we

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you do this lockout this is against the

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Constitution I'm being stepped on I've

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got the rights and they're all cozying

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up together and I I just dread to think

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what might happen yeah is that I hope

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that's not the picture that every

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everybody outside the United States has

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of every American that's that's a small

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subset of our population that does not

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represent our entire population and yeah

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I'm just as far as you that's the same

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group of people that also will be

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protesting against vaccinations and

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other science based interventions that

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are meant to help you know public health

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near as I can figure I think I'm gonna

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start you know circulating a rumor a

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conspiracy that that the virus was

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released by the government in order to

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make people who had a strong sense of

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freedom and independence go out and

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protest and then get killed off right

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away so that there would be no more

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resistance so if you are a person with a

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strong sense of independence and freedom

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you should stay inside right now so that

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you're available to fight later yeah

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good luck with that that that requires

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some level of thinking I haven't seen

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much evidence of that amongst a certain

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group of the population well all around

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the world really this and talking about

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that togi about people who aren't

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exhibiting a great deal of intelligence

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one of the segments on this week's

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episode of the skeptic zone coming on a

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little bit later on we look at past

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winners of the Australian skeptics bent

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spoon award who have suddenly and

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dramatically come back to try to claim

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the award again and

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these are all people vaguely you know

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you could vaguely say are involved in

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the health industry in some tenuous way

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making all sorts of crazy claims about

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covert 19 what you can do or what you

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shouldn't do about it you must be

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getting some crazy claims over there oh

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heavens yes yeah we've got our fair

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share of chiropractors saying that they

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can offer you know some immune boosting

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spinal adjustments and essential oils

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people and even on one of my favorite

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cooking shows it's annoying because one

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of the hosts of the cooking shows keeps

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talking about how oh you should cook

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with this herb in that herb because

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these are known to both boost your

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immunity I read all about it I'm like I

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bet you do oh well okay so it's not just

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confined to Australia I see but coming

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up I must say coming up at the top of

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the show we talked about well bird this

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is hard to get away from Kovach 19 we

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talked to Michael Marshall from the good

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thinking society in the UK and he's

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going to talk to us about his podcast to

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be reasonable and also some of the

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investigations the good thinking society

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is done into claims made by UK

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homeopaths when it comes to treating

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covered 19 Michael Marshall has been a

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longtime

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guest regular guest on the skipping so

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and so look forward to that wonderful

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also coming up this week we have

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Michelle Vickers male with her

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continuing segment logical fallacies

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this week we're going to look at special

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pleading now this is when this is when

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you might the best example I know

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awarded diviners and psychics when they

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fail a test they'll come up with a oh

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yeah but that's because my my shoes were

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wrong today you know things like that

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this or the best one of all is they'll

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say oh yes but you can't test psychic

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powers

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I remember hearing lots of funny special

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pleading when we used to do the test in

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Las Vegas of course at the amazing

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meeting then to round off the oh yeah

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you were there that's where I met you

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wasn't at an amazing meeting oh it must

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have been years ago

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I've known you for gosh it has it been

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like a decade yet quite possibly because

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I remember you were there and you gave

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me one of your cards because so as some

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people might know there's a

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caricature of me with Pegasus the pig

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and a bed spoon which I've been using

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for some years and now and Maynard's

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cartoon character which I'm sure

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everybody's familiar with in our main

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art is a cartoon characters a cartoon

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character him behind the desk that's all

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your work that's all you are

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now before we mentioned the last segment

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coming up on this week's show you of

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course make your living doing

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caricatures on the strip and around Las

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Vegas and I know it's tough for you at

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the moment where can people go to check

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out your wonderful work and possibly

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score a commission from you Oh actually

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many of the artists and content

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providers out there are having sort of

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it not so much that everything must go

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sale as and everything must please keep

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going a little bit sale rush and I've

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done the same thing I've wiped

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everything off of my website as far as

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live performance because obviously I'm

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not going to be drawing at any any

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high-end conventions or exclusive

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parties this month but I'm offering a

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digital quickie Commission I'm doing

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like $30 quick digital caricatures if

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people are interested they can check out

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ww2 heads studios.com and that's what

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the numeral two will put a link in this

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week's show notes but it's true so last

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year everybody I know suddenly well I

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guess we all have to adjust to a new way

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of working don't we and we will we're

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gonna get this is not gonna end us this

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is just gonna be an interesting time in

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history certainly is we're living

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through it and around off the show it's

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the book of Tim with Tim Mendham and

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this week Tim will review the science of

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miracles a book by Joe Nickell the

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famous paranormal investigator

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well Celestia I think it's time we

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should get on with the show

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absolutely I'm gonna run to the kitchen

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and I think I will scoop out some of the

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homemade hummus I made earlier in my

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food processor because you got all the

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time in the world now to make special

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fancy recipes and I'll have that with

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some toasted pita bread ooh while you do

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that I hope we all enjoy the skeptics

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urns

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[Music]

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and joining me now on the line all the

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way from locked-down Liverpool it's

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Michael Marshall from the good thinking

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society hi Marshall hey Richard how you

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doing you know what it's not too bad

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here in Sydney Australia it's a nice

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sunny day outside I'll go out for my

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government-authorized exercise a bit

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later on and um I'll be sure to listen

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to the latest skeptics with a K or even

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a back issue a back episode as you can

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say of be reasonable and let me talk

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about be reasonable for a moment because

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I keep running promotions for that

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because I think it's such a worthwhile

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podcast now I think that's on hiatus at

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the moment yeah it is it's been tricky

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so it's such a strange Shore to do so if

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people don't know be reasonable to show

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or I interview someone who is from the

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complete opposite side of an issue to

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the one that we skeptics would be on but

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instead of having an agressive

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conversation or a debate or a kind of

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trying to win the argument I try and

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actually hear from them and listen to

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them understand what kind of got them to

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that position and it's a sure I've been

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doing for quite long years but I haven't

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read I haven't done episode for quite

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some time now and yeah it's it's partly

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tricky because the one thing I don't

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want to do is continually repeat the

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same subjects and we have yet another

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conversation with a psychic and that

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kind of play out in a way that is less

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informative and the other thing is when

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you have so many other things going on

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it's quite it takes quite a lot of

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mental energy to be in the right space

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to do it and I've sort of struggled with

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that for a little bit but it's still a

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project I care a lot about and I do

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fully intend to to get episodes up and

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running again just as soon as I find a

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moment among the time and strange enough

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being in lockdown the amount of time

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that I have seems to have gotten much

274
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:24,010
much smaller rather than more plentiful

275
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:26,770
at the moment now you probably find

276
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:29,440
somebody who will tell you all about 5g

277
00:11:33,730 --> 00:11:31,450
in coronavirus that the right things

278
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,740
that going now folks be reasonable I

279
00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:35,600
as I say I keep running promotions for

280
00:11:39,130 --> 00:11:36,980
it because it is a really worthwhile

281
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:39,140
podcast for any skeptic to listen to

282
00:11:44,950 --> 00:11:42,650
because you really do Marsh you really

283
00:11:47,740 --> 00:11:44,960
do get into the mind of the believer

284
00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:47,750
because of your the attitude you take on

285
00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:49,100
the show which is really more of a

286
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:52,580
gentle conversation mmm well I think

287
00:11:56,740 --> 00:11:53,770
it's really important for us to

288
00:11:58,990 --> 00:11:56,750
understand what the people we disagree

289
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:59,000
with actually think otherwise what we

290
00:12:03,610 --> 00:12:01,120
end up doing is we end up constructing

291
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:03,620
elaborate straw men that actually bear

292
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:05,570
almost no resemblance to the to the

293
00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:07,510
actual ideas that we're that we're

294
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:10,190
countering and disagreeing with so it's

295
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:12,050
that that principle really is if you

296
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:14,210
want to debunk an argument you have to

297
00:12:18,130 --> 00:12:16,160
first listen to the argument and

298
00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:18,140
understand it because if we just go

299
00:12:22,060 --> 00:12:20,510
around assuming what everybody we

300
00:12:24,130 --> 00:12:22,070
disagree with is actually thinking and

301
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:24,140
throwing out the kind of the kind of

302
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:26,690
counter arguments we think will counter

303
00:12:30,430 --> 00:12:28,370
the arguments we assume they're making

304
00:12:32,410 --> 00:12:30,440
if we're countering arguments they're

305
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:32,420
not actually making them we're not only

306
00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:33,650
wasting our time but we're also

307
00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:36,230
completely ineffective when it comes to

308
00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:38,660
anybody who might encounter those those

309
00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:39,950
other arguments because they aren't

310
00:12:45,070 --> 00:12:42,860
hearing valid informed skepticism

311
00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:45,080
they'll hear instead somebody who thinks

312
00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:46,400
they know everything and listen to

313
00:12:49,510 --> 00:12:47,630
nothing so I think it's really important

314
00:12:51,220 --> 00:12:49,520
we do as much as possible engage with

315
00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:51,230
the arguments and and talk to people we

316
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:53,240
disagree with and have that at a kind of

317
00:12:58,570 --> 00:12:56,210
a human conversational level too so they

318
00:13:00,610 --> 00:12:58,580
don't think we're you know caricaturist

319
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:00,620
bad guys yes so they understand that

320
00:13:04,780 --> 00:13:02,210
we're also people with the best of

321
00:13:06,490 --> 00:13:04,790
intentions yeah and I'm sure you've

322
00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:06,500
probably met the same sort of people I

323
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:09,380
have over the years these strident

324
00:13:15,310 --> 00:13:12,050
armchair skeptics who will know a little

325
00:13:16,660 --> 00:13:15,320
bit about skepticism decide the subject

326
00:13:19,060 --> 00:13:16,670
they're looking at is complete and utter

327
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,070
bunk and it'll take a very narrow-minded

328
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:21,920
attitude yeah yeah and it's I mean if

329
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:25,010
it's it's in a way going into finding

330
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:27,770
skepticism as a movement I think lots of

331
00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:29,450
us are like that to begin with and I

332
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:30,680
certainly was when I first found

333
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:33,290
skepticism as an idea or as a community

334
00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:34,880
I was incredibly excited by it and I

335
00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:36,200
want to tell everybody all this new

336
00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:38,390
stuff that I found out and I almost

337
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,460
certainly just in lots of occasions just

338
00:13:44,830 --> 00:13:42,320
parented arguments I'd heard that heard

339
00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:44,840
elsewhere and talked people's ears off

340
00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:47,030
and bored them and wasn't particularly

341
00:13:49,150 --> 00:13:47,720
necessarily

342
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:49,160
charitable to the people we disagree

343
00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:50,870
with but I think if if you're in

344
00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:53,569
skepticism for long enough that you

345
00:13:58,179 --> 00:13:55,519
realize that what you really want is to

346
00:14:00,809 --> 00:13:58,189
effect change and to help people you

347
00:14:02,889 --> 00:14:00,819
realize that that gung-ho

348
00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:02,899
holier-than-thou smarter than our

349
00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:03,740
approach

350
00:14:06,639 --> 00:14:05,420
absolutely doesn't help people it

351
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:06,649
doesn't reach anybody it doesn't really

352
00:14:10,749 --> 00:14:08,240
change any minds it might make you feel

353
00:14:11,889 --> 00:14:10,759
better but it does nothing to actually

354
00:14:13,629 --> 00:14:11,899
affect the world around you if you

355
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:13,639
really want to make a change you have to

356
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:17,360
kind of adapt your your approach adapt

357
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:20,110
your tactics and and get a lot more

358
00:14:23,259 --> 00:14:22,100
open-minded see what the other people

359
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,269
are saying so you're in a much better

360
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:26,240
position to critique it with with enough

361
00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:27,410
gentleness that they're actually going

362
00:14:31,150 --> 00:14:29,750
to listen to you absolutely now folks if

363
00:14:32,619 --> 00:14:31,160
you want to catch up on be reasonable

364
00:14:35,019 --> 00:14:32,629
I'll add a link in this week's show

365
00:14:37,389 --> 00:14:35,029
notes it's just the thing just the thing

366
00:14:38,679 --> 00:14:37,399
to help you get through the lockdown at

367
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:38,689
the moment but let's move on to other

368
00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:41,810
subjects March other topics well in a

369
00:14:47,319 --> 00:14:44,360
way and this came to my attention just a

370
00:14:50,769 --> 00:14:47,329
few days ago an article in The Times and

371
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:50,779
the headline is homeopaths risking lives

372
00:14:56,439 --> 00:14:54,170
with bogus corona virus treatments now

373
00:14:58,509 --> 00:14:56,449
we've been seeing in the last couple of

374
00:15:01,660 --> 00:14:58,519
weeks coming across my desk have been a

375
00:15:04,059 --> 00:15:01,670
lot of far-fetched claims to do with

376
00:15:06,189 --> 00:15:04,069
corona virus what's the story behind

377
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,199
this particular news item

378
00:15:10,929 --> 00:15:08,959
yeah well it's it's unfortunate but not

379
00:15:13,269 --> 00:15:10,939
surprising that there are an awful lot

380
00:15:15,970 --> 00:15:13,279
of homeopaths here in the UK who see

381
00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:15,980
this global pandemic not just as an

382
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:18,529
international catastrophe that needs a

383
00:15:22,749 --> 00:15:21,199
public health intervention to manage but

384
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:22,759
as an opportunity to demonstrate to

385
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,350
people the effectiveness or the the

386
00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:26,240
so-called effective effectiveness of

387
00:15:31,629 --> 00:15:28,430
homeopathy and the treatments that they

388
00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:31,639
believe in and that they sell so what

389
00:15:35,379 --> 00:15:34,430
we've seen is unfortunately lots and

390
00:15:36,939 --> 00:15:35,389
lots of homeopaths

391
00:15:38,590 --> 00:15:36,949
within the society of homeopathy which

392
00:15:40,929 --> 00:15:38,600
is the UK's register of homeopaths

393
00:15:43,329 --> 00:15:40,939
making claims by coronavirus and there

394
00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:43,339
are some of them who are saying I'll do

395
00:15:47,049 --> 00:15:45,889
online consultations about coronavirus

396
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,059
there are some people actually offering

397
00:15:51,730 --> 00:15:49,759
a corona discount for their treatment so

398
00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:51,740
if you enter the the offer code corona

399
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:53,629
you can get money off and there are

400
00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:55,490
people who are saying that right now I'm

401
00:16:00,040 --> 00:15:57,500
busier than ever because of all the

402
00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:00,050
people I'm seeing turnover online

403
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:01,400
consultations too

404
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:03,529
to have to treat their coronavirus so

405
00:16:07,810 --> 00:16:05,210
you've seen this slew of misinformation

406
00:16:10,690 --> 00:16:07,820
and the way that we this story actually

407
00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:10,700
came about in the times is that I went

408
00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:12,200
through with a couple of other couple of

409
00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:13,670
the skeptics in the UK went through

410
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,190
hundreds of websites of registrants of

411
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:17,600
the society homeopathy to see what

412
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:19,690
they're saying about coronavirus and

413
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:22,130
compiled essentially a bit of a report

414
00:16:26,620 --> 00:16:24,290
of all of these different claims and we

415
00:16:28,630 --> 00:16:26,630
published that in The Times and it's

416
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:28,640
what's particularly shocking is it

417
00:16:32,350 --> 00:16:29,660
wasn't that long ago that we were

418
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,360
talking about the anti vaccine sat with

419
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,920
inside the society of homeopathy the

420
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:35,839
number of homy passed who said vaccines

421
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:37,610
are dangerous vaccines cause autism

422
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:40,160
homeopathy cures autism and we were

423
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:41,810
arguing as you'll remember at the time

424
00:16:45,460 --> 00:16:43,610
that the fact that the society

425
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:45,470
homeopathy was not taking sufficient

426
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:47,810
action against those claims meant that

427
00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:49,040
they should have their accreditation

428
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:50,900
their government accreditation removed

429
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:52,490
because they aren't working effectively

430
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:54,800
to protect the public from misleading

431
00:16:58,990 --> 00:16:56,720
and potentially dangerous claims and lo

432
00:17:00,970 --> 00:16:59,000
and behold corona virus pandemic hits

433
00:17:02,590 --> 00:17:00,980
the UK and we see a slew of homeopathy

434
00:17:04,929 --> 00:17:02,600
from exactly the same membership body

435
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:04,939
making exactly the same kind of level of

436
00:17:09,130 --> 00:17:06,640
dangerous and misleading claims

437
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:09,140
encouraging people to turn to sugar

438
00:17:13,059 --> 00:17:11,720
pills and when facing this this pandemic

439
00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:13,069
that's killing literally tens of

440
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:15,140
thousands of people it's it's it's

441
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:17,360
shocking really it is shocking because

442
00:17:23,199 --> 00:17:20,240
here in Australia I think the general

443
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:23,209
perception is we're doing okay compared

444
00:17:26,410 --> 00:17:24,410
to some countries in the world we're

445
00:17:27,939 --> 00:17:26,420
getting off lightly for whatever reason

446
00:17:31,060 --> 00:17:27,949
that is and that'll all come out in the

447
00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:31,070
wash later on but I know in the UK it is

448
00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:35,300
a dreadful situation um yeah it's it's

449
00:17:39,130 --> 00:17:37,190
gone very badly here in the UK and you

450
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:39,140
know when all of Europe was going into

451
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:41,570
lockdown the UK government didn't go

452
00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:43,250
into lockdown it refused to do that

453
00:17:45,940 --> 00:17:44,840
there was even a strategy mentioned at

454
00:17:48,010 --> 00:17:45,950
one point that we should just allow that

455
00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:48,020
the the me Boris Johnson went on

456
00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:49,640
television our prime minister and said

457
00:17:53,799 --> 00:17:51,080
we should allow the virus to pass

458
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:53,809
through society and to take this on the

459
00:17:59,049 --> 00:17:57,200
chin as essentially to say have so many

460
00:18:01,000 --> 00:17:59,059
UK citizens infected with it that we

461
00:18:02,650 --> 00:18:01,010
eventually developed the immunity that

462
00:18:04,270 --> 00:18:02,660
might come from having had the disease

463
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:04,280
but of course in doing that you're

464
00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:06,410
exposing thousands or hundreds of

465
00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:08,750
thousands of vulnerable people to a

466
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:10,270
disease that they won't be able to

467
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:12,890
recover from or recover from well and

468
00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:14,480
ends up swampy

469
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:15,860
the hospitals and that's what we're

470
00:18:19,810 --> 00:18:16,850
seeing unfortunately I think we've

471
00:18:22,270 --> 00:18:19,820
passed 14,000 deaths of or maybe more

472
00:18:25,539 --> 00:18:22,280
than that even and every day is just

473
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:25,549
another unfortunate series of very high

474
00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:28,640
numbers and it's um it's it's shocking

475
00:18:35,049 --> 00:18:32,540
to see that when the rest of Europe was

476
00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:35,059
already starting to experience serious

477
00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:37,190
issues and was going into lockdown we

478
00:18:40,570 --> 00:18:38,630
looked at that and thought no we as a

479
00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:40,580
country will be okay there was a day

480
00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:43,940
even while Italy was under lockdown the

481
00:18:47,409 --> 00:18:45,470
government thought it was perfectly fine

482
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:47,419
for a big horse racing event to go ahead

483
00:18:52,570 --> 00:18:49,010
the Cheltenham Festival which quarter of

484
00:18:54,970 --> 00:18:52,580
a million people gathered at and 3,000

485
00:18:56,409 --> 00:18:54,980
fans from a political Madrid were

486
00:18:58,900 --> 00:18:56,419
allowed to fly into Liverpool where I

487
00:19:00,010 --> 00:18:58,910
live to attend a football match and this

488
00:19:02,470 --> 00:19:00,020
was at the time that Madrid was

489
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:02,480
undergoing a major outbreak of

490
00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:04,370
coronavirus and those 3,000 fans were

491
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:06,020
allowed to just come into the ceiling to

492
00:19:08,289 --> 00:19:07,250
the city and wander around because the

493
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:08,299
government didn't think it was wise to

494
00:19:12,490 --> 00:19:11,120
to shut things down so we're seeing a

495
00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:12,500
lot of that unfortunately come home to

496
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:14,120
roost and it's it's the people who are

497
00:19:19,659 --> 00:19:16,730
most vulnerable who who bear the brunt

498
00:19:22,090 --> 00:19:19,669
of that unfortunately it is it is not a

499
00:19:24,340 --> 00:19:22,100
good thing to see at all it is quite

500
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:24,350
horrifying now just getting back to one

501
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:26,000
of the homeopaths let's take an example

502
00:19:30,490 --> 00:19:28,370
and it's the one I can see mentioned on

503
00:19:33,159 --> 00:19:30,500
The Times article sage homeopathy a

504
00:19:35,740 --> 00:19:33,169
North London based business states on

505
00:19:40,030 --> 00:19:35,750
its website that homeopathy can be quote

506
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:40,040
very effective in treating flu and kovat

507
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:44,330
19 is no exception end quote now I would

508
00:19:48,090 --> 00:19:45,890
imagine Martian this is something that

509
00:19:51,730 --> 00:19:48,100
you and I have seen over the years that

510
00:19:54,610 --> 00:19:51,740
most I'd hesitate to say or but

511
00:19:57,070 --> 00:19:54,620
certainly most homeopaths

512
00:20:00,010 --> 00:19:57,080
would sincerely believe that their sugar

513
00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:00,020
pills can actually treat this virus and

514
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:02,540
everything else yeah I think they do and

515
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:04,490
in many ways that's what makes them so

516
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:05,600
dangerous right now

517
00:20:09,940 --> 00:20:08,570
because if you as someone who didn't

518
00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:09,950
believe in what you're doing maybe you

519
00:20:14,140 --> 00:20:12,380
don't go quite as far as to say I can

520
00:20:15,789 --> 00:20:14,150
cure this global pandemic but if you

521
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:15,799
sincerely believe that what you have is

522
00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:18,049
not just another form of minute not just

523
00:20:22,810 --> 00:20:19,760
a form of alternative medicine that is

524
00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:22,820
good for coughs and headaches and hay

525
00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:25,190
fever and self-limiting illnesses but

526
00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:27,820
you actually have an entirely alter

527
00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:29,830
form of medicine that's on par if not

528
00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:32,020
better than conventional medicine then

529
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:33,460
it's understandable why you might think

530
00:20:38,430 --> 00:20:35,770
well absolutely I can cure this this

531
00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:38,440
epidemic that's stricken the world but

532
00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:39,790
unfortunately if the thing that you're

533
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:41,880
selling is nothing more than sugar pills

534
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:44,320
what you're doing is is encouraging

535
00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:45,760
people to either

536
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:48,460
Ashu real treatment or to potentially

537
00:20:52,140 --> 00:20:50,590
eschew the kind of social distancing

538
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:52,150
measures that we absolutely need to be

539
00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:53,890
taking in order to to protect those

540
00:20:59,940 --> 00:20:57,190
around us or even to to delay seeking

541
00:21:02,460 --> 00:20:59,950
genuine help when they when that when

542
00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:02,470
they start to experience severe symptoms

543
00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:04,600
so there is no good outcome from

544
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:06,790
somebody taking homeopathy when they

545
00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:08,890
need to be taking something else this is

546
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:10,990
just at best a waste of time and money

547
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:13,690
and at worst actively putting people's

548
00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:15,190
lives in danger from people who are

549
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:17,620
sincere but they're gonna do a sincerely

550
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:19,210
a sincere amount of damage to her to

551
00:21:24,330 --> 00:21:21,970
people yeah yeah and it brings home the

552
00:21:25,650 --> 00:21:24,340
point again and that we've discussed

553
00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:25,660
this on the skeptics urn I think

554
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:28,060
recently you know logical fallacies with

555
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:31,450
the false dichotomy a lot of people you

556
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:33,490
know early skeptics armchair skeptics in

557
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:35,140
the media especially will look at it

558
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:37,570
something like homeopathy and give it

559
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:39,790
put it in two baskets the first basket

560
00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:42,010
is it's a total scam and the people

561
00:21:46,170 --> 00:21:43,780
doing it are monsters and just out the

562
00:21:47,790 --> 00:21:46,180
scam you and the second basket is oh it

563
00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:47,800
totally works and you know this is

564
00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:49,750
something that we've yet to discover and

565
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:52,300
the middle huge gray area is what we're

566
00:21:56,850 --> 00:21:54,970
talking about these sincere but deluded

567
00:21:58,980 --> 00:21:56,860
people the homeopaths who think they're

568
00:22:01,170 --> 00:21:58,990
doing good and that's something that

569
00:22:03,870 --> 00:22:01,180
every skeptic should keep in mind yeah

570
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:03,880
it absolutely is and it's something

571
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,770
we've seen as I've trolled through the

572
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:07,360
websites of various homeopaths you can

573
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:09,460
see that they think they have an answer

574
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:11,170
they think they can help but

575
00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:12,370
unfortunately the answer that they're

576
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,140
selling is a false answer and it's it's

577
00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:16,000
better than no answer at all and we're

578
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:17,350
actually seeing steps from some

579
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:19,570
homeopaths in UK to try and circumvent

580
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,450
any attempt to track what they're doing

581
00:22:27,450 --> 00:22:25,120
so I spotted a website last week which

582
00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:27,460
was talking all about how homeopathy can

583
00:22:31,470 --> 00:22:29,860
help the coronavirus when I checked that

584
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:31,480
website yesterday it wasn't talking

585
00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:32,890
about that but it was talking about how

586
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:34,780
homeopathy can help the current global

587
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:37,210
pandemic and if you compared the two web

588
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,280
pages side by side you'd found they just

589
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,200
done a find and replace to replace

590
00:22:45,269 --> 00:22:43,360
any mentions of coronavirus with the

591
00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:45,279
phrase the current global pandemic

592
00:22:49,769 --> 00:22:47,830
hoping presumably that anybody who is

593
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:49,779
looking for homeopathy selling solutions

594
00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:51,370
to coronavirus wouldn't think to add

595
00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:53,529
synonyms for her own a virus into the

596
00:22:58,620 --> 00:22:55,510
list and at that point you think this

597
00:23:00,389 --> 00:22:58,630
isn't just this isn't just well meaning

598
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:00,399
there's a level of cynicism that you're

599
00:23:05,250 --> 00:23:02,830
trying to skirt around the the

600
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:05,260
regulation and trying to hide in plain

601
00:23:10,019 --> 00:23:07,630
sight a little bit so there is some some

602
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:10,029
misleading stuff going on in how people

603
00:23:13,409 --> 00:23:11,710
are marketing but by and large they're

604
00:23:15,779 --> 00:23:13,419
doing it I think because they really

605
00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:15,789
believe they can help but right now we

606
00:23:19,820 --> 00:23:17,830
do not need that right now is the worst

607
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:19,830
possible time for people to start

608
00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:22,570
inserting their own pet theories and

609
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:24,700
inserting their own pet cures and

610
00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:26,950
they're kind of old wives tales

611
00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:30,220
traditional remedies into this crisis

612
00:23:33,409 --> 00:23:32,049
right now all we need right now is for

613
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:33,419
people to follow the advice of

614
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:36,130
governments for the advice of trusted

615
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:38,260
medical professionals and that's to you

616
00:23:43,049 --> 00:23:40,480
know as we know Cavia is to wash your

617
00:23:44,879 --> 00:23:43,059
hands to stay at home to keep distant

618
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:44,889
from people and allow those who have to

619
00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:47,200
be out there to be out there with with

620
00:23:52,259 --> 00:23:49,470
minimal amount of contact with people

621
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:52,269
absolutely now where where is this

622
00:23:55,710 --> 00:23:53,769
heading is this something that you're

623
00:23:58,860 --> 00:23:55,720
still working on is this going to be

624
00:24:00,480 --> 00:23:58,870
formalized at some stage so we're still

625
00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:00,490
looking at things at the moment so we've

626
00:24:05,639 --> 00:24:03,340
made we've made our findings available

627
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,649
to the society the society homeopaths

628
00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:07,360
and also the Professional Standards

629
00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:08,860
Authority which is the government body

630
00:24:13,169 --> 00:24:10,990
that accredits the society homeopaths

631
00:24:18,419 --> 00:24:13,179
but the point that we've made to the PSA

632
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:18,429
is how seriously can we expect the

633
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:20,490
Society of homeopathy to prevent their

634
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:22,809
registrants from making these claims

635
00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:24,460
when the Society of homeopaths

636
00:24:28,620 --> 00:24:26,500
themselves are spreading misleading

637
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:28,630
information about the corona virus so on

638
00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:30,490
their own society of homeopathy

639
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:32,860
announcement about how to deal with the

640
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:35,470
corona virus at the bottom at the top of

641
00:24:37,950 --> 00:24:36,730
the the grounds where it says you know

642
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:37,960
we need to wash our hands and stay

643
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:39,610
indoors and all this kind of stuff you

644
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:41,260
know don't see patients face to face

645
00:24:45,060 --> 00:24:43,510
just do them of a sky / or over video

646
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:45,070
calls and things but at the bottom of

647
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,960
that very announcement by the regulator

648
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:48,880
of homeopaths it said how can homeopathy

649
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:51,250
help and listed remedies that are good

650
00:24:54,899 --> 00:24:54,159
for cold and flu symptoms so even in

651
00:24:56,820 --> 00:24:54,909
that

652
00:24:59,369 --> 00:24:56,830
keep away from coronavirus statement

653
00:25:01,859 --> 00:24:59,379
they're telling their members what what

654
00:25:04,919 --> 00:25:01,869
what remedies will will help on the the

655
00:25:07,019 --> 00:25:04,929
Facebook and social media of the Society

656
00:25:07,889 --> 00:25:07,029
of homeopaths even in the last week or

657
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:07,899
last week or two

658
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:09,580
they've been spreading misinformation on

659
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:11,320
those posts about how homeopathy can

660
00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:14,559
help with with lungs that feel like your

661
00:25:18,659 --> 00:25:15,940
heart like it's hard to breathe you're

662
00:25:20,369 --> 00:25:18,669
burning along with with fevers and these

663
00:25:22,289 --> 00:25:20,379
are symptoms of coronavirus and I don't

664
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:22,299
think it's a coincidence that they're

665
00:25:26,219 --> 00:25:23,679
talking about those symptoms I think

666
00:25:28,109 --> 00:25:26,229
it's a dereliction of duty in many in

667
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:28,119
many ways that the regulator charged

668
00:25:32,249 --> 00:25:30,159
with protecting the public is itself

669
00:25:35,099 --> 00:25:32,259
spreading misinformation so there's some

670
00:25:36,719 --> 00:25:35,109
serious work to be done by by the the

671
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:36,729
PSA the government's regulator in

672
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:38,799
bringing this to account because this

673
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:40,570
isn't a time for regulators to move

674
00:25:44,999 --> 00:25:43,570
slowly as things are developing right

675
00:25:47,339 --> 00:25:45,009
now any amount of misinformation

676
00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:47,349
muddying the water could genuinely come

677
00:25:52,379 --> 00:25:49,720
with at the cost of people's lives yeah

678
00:25:53,639 --> 00:25:52,389
it is it is a fright frightening

679
00:25:56,729 --> 00:25:53,649
situation at the moment and you're

680
00:25:58,289 --> 00:25:56,739
absolutely right now let's change tack

681
00:26:01,049 --> 00:25:58,299
towards the end of our little chat here

682
00:26:02,969 --> 00:26:01,059
now here in Sydney Australia for many

683
00:26:05,219 --> 00:26:02,979
years we've had Sydney skeptics in the

684
00:26:07,229 --> 00:26:05,229
pub I mean since the early part of the

685
00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:07,239
last decade and we have a monthly

686
00:26:13,469 --> 00:26:08,950
speaker and everybody has a great time

687
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:13,479
and well as you know at the moment just

688
00:26:17,099 --> 00:26:15,129
like the UK all the pubs and the clubs

689
00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:17,109
and the restaurants are all shut at the

690
00:26:20,339 --> 00:26:18,580
moment so no more skeptics in the pub

691
00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:20,349
but you've done something about that in

692
00:26:25,349 --> 00:26:23,049
the UK you've got the online skeptics in

693
00:26:29,509 --> 00:26:25,359
the pub again a link in this week's show

694
00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:29,519
notes but it's twitch.tv slash s i TP

695
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:32,590
how's that all going yeah it's starting

696
00:26:36,749 --> 00:26:35,200
to look look pretty good really so all

697
00:26:38,969 --> 00:26:36,759
of the many of the skeptics in the pub

698
00:26:40,589 --> 00:26:38,979
organisers of the various different

699
00:26:42,629 --> 00:26:40,599
groups that are that are dotted around

700
00:26:44,849 --> 00:26:42,639
around the UK and I think we have

701
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:44,859
something like 20 or - maybe even 30

702
00:26:49,019 --> 00:26:46,809
groups dotted around the UK of skeptics

703
00:26:51,629 --> 00:26:49,029
in the pubs we all realized that we all

704
00:26:52,979 --> 00:26:51,639
wanted to be doing events still you

705
00:26:54,299 --> 00:26:52,989
can't have our in-person events so we

706
00:26:56,279 --> 00:26:54,309
all were looking to find ways of doing

707
00:26:58,799 --> 00:26:56,289
that online and it struck us though it

708
00:27:00,109 --> 00:26:58,809
made kind of little sense for 20 groups

709
00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:00,119
to go off and have their own online

710
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:02,769
meetings with 20 different audiences

711
00:27:06,749 --> 00:27:04,720
when we're no longer geographically

712
00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:06,759
bound to which pub you can get to so we

713
00:27:11,739 --> 00:27:08,809
could just kind of amalgamated

714
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:11,749
and have an online group that anyone in

715
00:27:15,009 --> 00:27:12,769
the country could join and in fact

716
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:15,019
anyone around the world can join and so

717
00:27:18,399 --> 00:27:16,370
we've had that we've had our first

718
00:27:20,049 --> 00:27:18,409
skeptics in the pub online already that

719
00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:20,059
was Professor Jim al-khalili talking

720
00:27:24,639 --> 00:27:21,860
about the the world according to physics

721
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:24,649
and it was it was a really fun event it

722
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:26,330
had some technical challenges as its

723
00:27:29,259 --> 00:27:27,860
going to be going to have when a

724
00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:29,269
volunteer group is throwing things

725
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:31,580
together very very quickly with with

726
00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:34,220
little notice and zero budget but we're

727
00:27:37,749 --> 00:27:36,230
starting to put together a fairly fairly

728
00:27:42,190 --> 00:27:37,759
good-looking event and we've got another

729
00:27:43,869 --> 00:27:42,200
one on Thursday the the 21st so I'm

730
00:27:45,549 --> 00:27:43,879
looking forward to that one too so yeah

731
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:45,559
it started look I look pretty cool

732
00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:46,970
really and it's nice that people can

733
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:48,860
just pop along to twitch on their phones

734
00:27:52,539 --> 00:27:50,690
on the laptops or you know even on their

735
00:27:53,619 --> 00:27:52,549
televisions and just see skeptics in the

736
00:27:55,810 --> 00:27:53,629
pub there and join in the conversation

737
00:27:58,869 --> 00:27:55,820
and ask questions of the speakers and

738
00:28:00,759 --> 00:27:58,879
still have that sense of being at a

739
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:00,769
sceptical event even though we can't

740
00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:02,570
literally literally be there at the

741
00:28:06,669 --> 00:28:04,940
moment yeah you can encourage everybody

742
00:28:08,649 --> 00:28:06,679
to grab their favorite drink and have a

743
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:08,659
plate of chips or something yeah yeah

744
00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:10,610
exactly I know where they go it's what

745
00:28:14,409 --> 00:28:11,990
we would do normally it skeptics in the

746
00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:14,419
pub in Sydney anyway well Marsh thanks

747
00:28:17,769 --> 00:28:16,100
very much for that update we're going to

748
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:17,779
keep our eye on the situation please

749
00:28:23,139 --> 00:28:21,230
keep us advised if anything more happens

750
00:28:24,999 --> 00:28:23,149
on that it's amazing that after all

751
00:28:27,399 --> 00:28:25,009
these years that we get back to the same

752
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:27,409
core topics isn't it and homeopaths must

753
00:28:32,139 --> 00:28:29,330
be towards the top of the list of the

754
00:28:35,529 --> 00:28:32,149
good old core topics that we we look at

755
00:28:37,299 --> 00:28:35,539
well good luck for the rest of the

756
00:28:40,509 --> 00:28:37,309
lockdown none of us know how long that's

757
00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:40,519
going to take in the UK or here in

758
00:28:44,409 --> 00:28:42,230
Australia but it's good to see that

759
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:44,419
despite all these troubles the good

760
00:28:48,899 --> 00:28:47,600
thinking society is still still out

761
00:28:51,009 --> 00:28:48,909
there doing what it should be doing

762
00:28:53,379 --> 00:28:51,019
absolutely we're all we're all keeping

763
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:53,389
on and I'm sure if we keep our heads

764
00:28:57,310 --> 00:28:55,850
down and get through this well the other

765
00:28:59,769 --> 00:28:57,320
side will be able to have those those

766
00:29:01,330 --> 00:28:59,779
pub meetings in person again and that'll

767
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:01,340
be a great day when we can all be back

768
00:29:03,730 --> 00:29:02,450
in the pub and enjoy each other's

769
00:29:05,289 --> 00:29:03,740
company knowing we've got through this

770
00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:05,299
but for the time for the time being we

771
00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:07,070
just need to keep our heads down keep

772
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:09,230
our heads together and and keep keep

773
00:29:13,779 --> 00:29:11,090
looking forward really keep carrying on

774
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:13,789
I guess they'd say well thanks back but

775
00:29:17,379 --> 00:29:15,440
now Michael marshal all the way there in

776
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:17,389
live thanks very much thanks a lot

777
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:27,370
[Music]

778
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:30,330
hey max fun listeners have you been

779
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:32,010
listening to max fun for a while and

780
00:29:35,780 --> 00:29:33,690
you've just been wondering where's the

781
00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:35,790
new Flat Earth podcast to keep hearing

782
00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:37,620
about well here it is we give you all

783
00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:40,830
the facts on NASA's lies and how we know

784
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:45,390
that the earth is actually flat this is

785
00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:48,750
oh no Ross and Carrie and we join fringe

786
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:50,700
religious groups we undergo alternative

787
00:29:54,380 --> 00:29:52,770
medical treatments and we hang out with

788
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:54,390
people like 9/11 truthers flat-earthers

789
00:29:58,790 --> 00:29:56,250
we find out why do people believe

790
00:30:00,500 --> 00:29:58,800
strange things we join them and we tell

791
00:30:02,150 --> 00:30:00,510
you all about it we have a lot of fun we

792
00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:02,160
make a lot of friends yeah we do we

793
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:03,920
joined the Mormons we join the

794
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:06,510
Scientologists we got acupuncture we got

795
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:08,730
fire cups we got ear candled we've done

796
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:10,320
it all and we're gonna keep doing it all

797
00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:12,150
why don't you check out oh no Ross and

798
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:38,470
[Music]

799
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:40,380
logical fallacies

800
00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:43,150
[Music]

801
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:46,670
what are logical fallacies and why is it

802
00:30:52,690 --> 00:30:48,590
important that critical thinkers should

803
00:30:55,540 --> 00:30:52,700
know about them a logical fallacy is an

804
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:55,550
error we can make in reasoning but it

805
00:31:02,200 --> 00:30:57,560
usually crops up when we are discussing

806
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:02,210
or arguing our point of view some people

807
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:04,640
might even knowingly use them to try and

808
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:06,590
score cheap points in an argument

809
00:31:13,030 --> 00:31:10,490
due to intellectual laziness they are

810
00:31:15,310 --> 00:31:13,040
traps we can fall into but if we know

811
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:15,320
what to look out for we can spot them

812
00:31:23,530 --> 00:31:17,600
when they occur and stop ourselves from

813
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:23,540
using them this week we'll look at

814
00:31:29,770 --> 00:31:27,350
special pleading this is when instead of

815
00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:29,780
admitting your point of view or argument

816
00:31:35,470 --> 00:31:32,990
is wrong you try to find a loophole that

817
00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:35,480
gives you an out and saves you from

818
00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:38,180
defeat it is also when a person makes an

819
00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:40,220
exception to a universal principle

820
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:42,830
because they are holding on tight to a

821
00:31:48,490 --> 00:31:44,690
belief that doesn't align with that

822
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:48,500
principle we see this situation so often

823
00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:51,290
in skeptical investigations from

824
00:31:56,650 --> 00:31:54,500
so-called psychics to water diviners to

825
00:32:00,370 --> 00:31:56,660
people who claim they have invented a

826
00:32:02,110 --> 00:32:00,380
perpetual motion machine when it comes

827
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:02,120
to the crunch and they fail to

828
00:32:08,020 --> 00:32:04,850
demonstrate their claim they will always

829
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:08,030
find a way to excuse the failure and

830
00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:13,130
preserve their worldview warmly I'm 100%

831
00:32:18,580 --> 00:32:15,560
successful when I'm water divining I

832
00:32:21,250 --> 00:32:18,590
never miss but when I was tested by the

833
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:21,260
skeptics my divining power didn't work

834
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:24,950
however I know why those skeptics had me

835
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:27,110
tested on the wrong type of water and

836
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:30,590
that threw me off believe it or not this

837
00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:33,320
was the actual argument made by a water

838
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:35,960
diviner after failing a test of his

839
00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:39,590
claimed ability of all the people tested

840
00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:42,230
by Australian skeptics over the decades

841
00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:44,990
it's the water diviners who come up with

842
00:32:48,570 --> 00:32:47,660
the most creative examples of special

843
00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:48,580
pleading

844
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:53,390
none of them not one of the hundreds who

845
00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:56,330
have tried have passed the agreed to

846
00:33:02,350 --> 00:32:59,330
tests I know I failed to find the

847
00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:02,360
treasure using my psychic powers but it

848
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:03,320
wasn't my fault

849
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:05,570
my spirit guide led me to the wrong

850
00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:08,559
place to teach me a lesson in humility

851
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:11,960
once again we have an example based on a

852
00:33:19,090 --> 00:33:15,200
real excuse given by someone claiming to

853
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:19,100
be a psychic not only did the so-called

854
00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:22,070
psychic find a way to justify their

855
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:24,860
failure they also found a way to

856
00:33:32,139 --> 00:33:26,960
reinforce their belief in the paranormal

857
00:33:34,659 --> 00:33:32,149
at the same time a for effort it's

858
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:34,669
simply amazing how well acupuncture

859
00:33:39,399 --> 00:33:37,250
works it doesn't matter that science

860
00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:39,409
cannot identify the mechanism by which

861
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:42,500
it works we don't need to wait for

862
00:33:46,210 --> 00:33:44,570
science to catch up to what we already

863
00:33:48,639 --> 00:33:46,220
know anyway

864
00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:48,649
science clearly isn't able to discover

865
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:51,620
how acupuncture works this example of

866
00:33:56,129 --> 00:33:53,630
special plating has been used for many

867
00:33:59,740 --> 00:33:56,139
years by those promoting acupuncture

868
00:34:02,850 --> 00:33:59,750
so-called energy healing homeopathy and

869
00:34:05,649 --> 00:34:02,860
many other forms of alternative medicine

870
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:05,659
when the scientific evidence is lacking

871
00:34:11,169 --> 00:34:08,089
they will blame science for not

872
00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:11,179
understanding or even for not being able

873
00:34:19,930 --> 00:34:17,800
we humans are very good at doing

874
00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:19,940
everything we can to preserve our

875
00:34:26,619 --> 00:34:24,139
beliefs and our worldview it could be

876
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:26,629
said to be a form of natural defense as

877
00:34:31,930 --> 00:34:28,550
the mind looks for ways to protect

878
00:34:34,419 --> 00:34:31,940
itself it is something you should take

879
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:34,429
into consideration when arguing with

880
00:34:39,139 --> 00:34:37,040
someone who is truly convinced of their

881
00:34:41,899 --> 00:34:39,149
own point of view

882
00:34:47,569 --> 00:34:41,909
rarely will they just change their mind

883
00:34:50,329 --> 00:34:47,579
on the spot knowing a logical fallacy

884
00:34:52,879 --> 00:34:50,339
when you hear one and even knowing its

885
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:52,889
name is important when arguing your

886
00:34:59,150 --> 00:34:56,490
point of view however you may come

887
00:35:01,789 --> 00:34:59,160
across as arrogant and not get very far

888
00:35:05,870 --> 00:35:01,799
if you call it out by name to your

889
00:35:08,299 --> 00:35:05,880
opponent when you hear it being used if

890
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:08,309
your opponent calls you out for using

891
00:35:13,660 --> 00:35:11,010
one it's time to stop and think about

892
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:13,670
how you are making your case

893
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:15,930
here's your knowledge of logical

894
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:19,680
fallacies wisely and remember that even

895
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:22,079
if your point of view is right and you

896
00:35:27,410 --> 00:35:24,270
know all the pitfalls in arguing your

897
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:27,420
case it doesn't always mean you'll win

898
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:31,260
on the day and a skeptics we must also

899
00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:33,960
remember that we too can be wrong at

900
00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:39,630
times I'm sure because my from the Vik

901
00:35:57,620 --> 00:35:54,940
greetings listeners it's me captain

902
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:57,630
disillusion on my youtube channel called

903
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:00,240
captain disillusion aye captain

904
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:02,490
disillusion analyzed viral videos of the

905
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:04,530
strange and unbelievable I explained how

906
00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:07,050
interframe video compression 3d motion

907
00:36:11,570 --> 00:36:09,030
tracking and stock the effects elements

908
00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:11,580
prove that Justin Bieber is not a secret

909
00:36:15,620 --> 00:36:13,800
reptilian alien that those videos of

910
00:36:17,660 --> 00:36:15,630
ghost cars are just unintentional

911
00:36:19,310 --> 00:36:17,670
optical illusions and that lightning did

912
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:19,320
not strike a few feet away from a girl

913
00:36:23,930 --> 00:36:21,210
on a beach as we saw in the news I'm

914
00:36:27,740 --> 00:36:23,940
real fun at parties my best friend is a

915
00:36:29,690 --> 00:36:27,750
lens flare disillusion I do know other

916
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:29,700
people sometimes they even show up in my

917
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:32,310
videos people like skepticisms grandpa

918
00:36:35,540 --> 00:36:34,290
James Randi serve de Soleil Acrobat

919
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:35,550
Erica Lin's

920
00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:37,770
weight loss enthusiast Penn Jillette and

921
00:36:42,140 --> 00:36:39,900
the actual Beekman from Beakman's world

922
00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:42,150
I hope you'll check out my adventures

923
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:44,460
interact with me in a platonic way and

924
00:36:49,250 --> 00:36:46,770
even consider becoming a patron of my

925
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:49,260
work you can do all that and more on

926
00:37:00,359 --> 00:36:52,590
YouTube or at Captain disillusion calm

927
00:37:02,549 --> 00:37:00,369
[Music]

928
00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:02,559
from the website of Australian skeptics

929
00:37:09,450 --> 00:37:06,700
WW skeptics calm delay you published on

930
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:09,460
the 16th of April 2020 by Richard

931
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:12,970
Saunders and Tim Mendel past bent spoon

932
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:22,690
winners vie for the dishonor in 2020 in

933
00:37:27,989 --> 00:37:25,630
the 38 years of the Australian skeptics

934
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:27,999
bent spoon award issued to the

935
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:29,529
perpetrator of the most preposterous

936
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:31,839
piece of paranormal or pseudo scientific

937
00:37:37,529 --> 00:37:35,440
piffle we have never had the need to

938
00:37:40,799 --> 00:37:37,539
award this dishonor to the same person

939
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:40,809
twice however with the current covert 19

940
00:37:45,749 --> 00:37:42,970
situation impacting on the whole world

941
00:37:47,849 --> 00:37:45,759
some of the bent spoon winners from

942
00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:47,859
years past have suddenly and

943
00:37:53,069 --> 00:37:50,140
dramatically thrown their hats into the

944
00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:53,079
ring for 2020 while the fight against

945
00:37:57,799 --> 00:37:55,660
this killer virus goes on there are some

946
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,809
in our country who seem intent on

947
00:38:02,910 --> 00:38:00,160
sabotaging the efforts of our healthcare

948
00:38:05,090 --> 00:38:02,920
workers and citizens alike who are by

949
00:38:10,249 --> 00:38:05,100
and large doing the right thing

950
00:38:14,009 --> 00:38:10,259
[Music]

951
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:14,019
in 2015 the bent spoon was awarded to

952
00:38:19,759 --> 00:38:17,170
chef Pete Evans for his diet promotions

953
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:19,769
campaigns against fluidization and

954
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:23,680
supportive anti vaccination in 2020

955
00:38:30,539 --> 00:38:26,650
Evans via an online video promoted the

956
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:30,549
benefits of the bio charger machine from

957
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:33,730
the USA the makers of this device which

958
00:38:45,529 --> 00:38:36,250
looks like something out of a 1974

959
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:45,539
episode of Doctor Who and costs us

960
00:38:52,349 --> 00:38:48,910
fifteen thousand dollars claimant works

961
00:38:54,690 --> 00:38:52,359
via frequencies and harmonics and is

962
00:38:57,539 --> 00:38:54,700
beneficial for a huge range of ailments

963
00:39:00,029 --> 00:38:57,549
to quote Evans it's a pretty amazing

964
00:39:02,309 --> 00:39:00,039
tool it's programmed with about a

965
00:39:04,289 --> 00:39:02,319
thousand different recipes there's a

966
00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:04,299
couple of them in there for the Wuhan

967
00:39:10,529 --> 00:39:07,390
coronavirus while he took the promotion

968
00:39:12,029 --> 00:39:10,539
off his Facebook page Evans and his

969
00:39:13,769 --> 00:39:12,039
product are now the subject of

970
00:39:16,049 --> 00:39:13,779
investigations by the healthcare

971
00:39:18,269 --> 00:39:16,059
Complaints Commission the therapeutics

972
00:39:21,019 --> 00:39:18,279
Goods Administration and the Australian

973
00:39:24,809 --> 00:39:21,029
Competition and Consumer Commission and

974
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:24,819
in 2010 the spoon went to meryl dory and

975
00:39:30,029 --> 00:39:27,250
the deceptively named australian

976
00:39:33,539 --> 00:39:30,039
vaccination network who spread fear and

977
00:39:36,690 --> 00:39:33,549
misinformation about vaccines ten years

978
00:39:39,210 --> 00:39:36,700
later and Dory via online videos and

979
00:39:42,359 --> 00:39:39,220
posts questions whether or not there

980
00:39:44,789 --> 00:39:42,369
really is a pandemic at all she also

981
00:39:47,999 --> 00:39:44,799
posted online the following reckless

982
00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:48,009
requests are you being lied to if you

983
00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:49,720
are out and about in the next couple of

984
00:39:54,059 --> 00:39:51,670
days why don't you take your phones and

985
00:39:56,970 --> 00:39:54,069
pop into a local hospital she wants to

986
00:39:59,569 --> 00:39:56,980
see if hospital emergency and intensive

987
00:40:03,029 --> 00:39:59,579
care wards are really full of ill people

988
00:40:05,759 --> 00:40:03,039
the last thing any hospital needs at the

989
00:40:09,230 --> 00:40:05,769
moment a conspiracy theory fanatics

990
00:40:12,779 --> 00:40:09,240
running amok through their corridors

991
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:12,789
2012 saw the award go to Fran Sheffield

992
00:40:19,259 --> 00:40:15,940
of homeopathy Plus for advocating the

993
00:40:21,690 --> 00:40:19,269
use of magical sugar and water in place

994
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:21,700
of tried and true vaccinations for many

995
00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:22,930
deadly diseases

996
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:26,140
most notably whooping cough this time

997
00:40:30,839 --> 00:40:28,510
around Sheffield is pushing the bizarre

998
00:40:33,839 --> 00:40:30,849
notion that homeopathy can help prevent

999
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:33,849
kovat 19 and points to its use in India

1000
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:37,690
she also implied there was a conspiracy

1001
00:40:47,099 --> 00:40:40,210
to delete information of a homeopathic

1002
00:40:49,290 --> 00:40:47,109
kovat 19 treatment in 2016 it was Judi

1003
00:40:51,450 --> 00:40:49,300
while Eamonn Brian Martin and the

1004
00:40:54,329 --> 00:40:51,460
University of Wollongong for awarding

1005
00:40:57,859 --> 00:40:54,339
why Lehmann and doctorate on the basis

1006
00:41:00,349 --> 00:40:57,869
of a PhD thesis riddled with errors

1007
00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:00,359
misstatements poor and unsupported

1008
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:03,390
evidence and conspiratorial thinking

1009
00:41:08,670 --> 00:41:06,430
while Eamonn - via an online video

1010
00:41:11,609 --> 00:41:08,680
questioned whether there really is a

1011
00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:11,619
pandemic advocating that social

1012
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:13,660
distancing and the banning of gatherings

1013
00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:15,970
are not necessary in this current

1014
00:41:20,730 --> 00:41:18,460
outbreak this advice flies in the face

1015
00:41:23,370 --> 00:41:20,740
of the best medical advice and we've

1016
00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:23,380
sadly seen the results so far in

1017
00:41:28,789 --> 00:41:25,180
countries where action was taken too

1018
00:41:31,650 --> 00:41:28,799
late the video has since been taken down

1019
00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:31,660
we will keep an eye out in case any

1020
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:34,030
other past winners are keen to win the

1021
00:41:39,809 --> 00:41:36,970
bent spoon again in 2020 but we would

1022
00:41:43,859 --> 00:41:39,819
warn them the competition this year is

1023
00:41:49,810 --> 00:41:47,170
and that was past bent spoon winners vie

1024
00:41:52,450 --> 00:41:49,820
for the dishonor in 2020 by Richard

1025
00:41:54,430 --> 00:41:52,460
Saunders and Tim Mendham and you can

1026
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:54,440
read that by following the link in this

1027
00:42:12,940 --> 00:41:57,040
week's show notes or just going to WW

1028
00:42:15,940 --> 00:42:12,950
skeptics calm donate you oh hi Maynard

1029
00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:15,950
oh hi Heidi great they're in this park

1030
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:18,950
yeah if you like that sort of thing look

1031
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:20,000
over there

1032
00:42:29,650 --> 00:42:23,450
oh yeah we there are no such things as

1033
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:29,660
URIs silly hmm might be just dog a big

1034
00:42:36,310 --> 00:42:32,090
dog I think it's a King Charles Spaniel

1035
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:36,320
thing mmm no no no no it's a Yowie may

1036
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:39,050
nod if it's a choice between it being a

1037
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:43,520
dog or a Yowie no no no it co e ya e ya

1038
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:46,400
e ya e ya e argument from Authority

1039
00:42:53,530 --> 00:42:50,690
it's yo E are you - what are you arguing

1040
00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:53,540
about may not thinks that dog lookin

1041
00:43:01,450 --> 00:42:57,160
thing over there is a Yowie oh yeah we

1042
00:43:04,750 --> 00:43:01,460
well maybe Chu Becker the wookie over

1043
00:43:07,420 --> 00:43:04,760
her I see okay we better look this up in

1044
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:07,430
the skeptics dictionary online though

1045
00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:10,010
Wow the skeptics dictionary online

1046
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:12,680
features definitions arguments and

1047
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:15,290
essays on hundreds of strange beliefs

1048
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:17,750
amusing descriptions and dangerous

1049
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:20,810
delusions also features dozens of

1050
00:43:27,660 --> 00:43:23,510
entries on logical fallacies cognitive

1051
00:43:38,970 --> 00:43:27,670
biases perception science and philosophy

1052
00:43:43,540 --> 00:43:38,980
it's w WS k EP d IC comment right ha d

1053
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:43,550
prepared to be amazed okay

1054
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:47,950
ah here it is send a Bigfoot it says

1055
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:51,470
most scientists discount the evidence of

1056
00:43:56,530 --> 00:43:53,570
Bigfoot because the evidence supporting

1057
00:43:59,140 --> 00:43:56,540
belief in the survival of the historic

1058
00:44:02,620 --> 00:43:59,150
biped ape-like creature of such

1059
00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:02,630
dimensions is scant you know maybe that

1060
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:10,750
is just Chewbacca after all thank you

1061
00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:28,970
skeptics dictionary online and now a

1062
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:34,460
reading from the book of Tim with Tim

1063
00:44:47,620 --> 00:44:36,970
Mendham

1064
00:44:50,170 --> 00:44:47,630
executive officer of Australian skeptics

1065
00:44:53,170 --> 00:44:50,180
Inc and I'm also editor of our magazine

1066
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:53,180
the skeptic today I'd like to read a

1067
00:44:59,039 --> 00:44:56,450
book review called the hand of God which

1068
00:45:04,269 --> 00:44:59,049
appeared in the skeptic magazine June

1069
00:45:06,099 --> 00:45:04,279
2016 which is vol 36 number 2 and the

1070
00:45:08,130 --> 00:45:06,109
review in question is of a book by Joe

1071
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:08,140
Nickell who's a very famous

1072
00:45:12,370 --> 00:45:10,250
paranormalists paranormal investigator

1073
00:45:26,499 --> 00:45:12,380
and it's his book is called the science

1074
00:45:28,359 --> 00:45:26,509
of miracles now I have a problem this is

1075
00:45:30,940 --> 00:45:28,369
me speaking I have a problem with

1076
00:45:32,319 --> 00:45:30,950
miracles not just whether they happen or

1077
00:45:34,839 --> 00:45:32,329
not but the meaning of the very word

1078
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:34,849
miracle the Oxford Dictionary gives

1079
00:45:38,289 --> 00:45:36,920
three meanings which are an

1080
00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:38,299
extraordinary and welcome event

1081
00:45:43,509 --> 00:45:40,630
attributed to a divine agency a

1082
00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:43,519
remarkable and very welcome event or an

1083
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:45,740
outstanding example specimen or

1084
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:49,250
achievement in the media's coverage of

1085
00:45:53,049 --> 00:45:51,200
surprising events and happy endings such

1086
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:53,059
as finding a kid who's been lost in the

1087
00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:55,730
Japanese forest for a week they far too

1088
00:46:00,249 --> 00:45:57,470
often resort to calling it a miracle

1089
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:00,259
it's hard to distinguish which meaning

1090
00:46:04,839 --> 00:46:03,200
is being used in the case of the wonders

1091
00:46:07,539 --> 00:46:04,849
of Saints curative powers it is

1092
00:46:09,490 --> 00:46:07,549
obviously the first definition but we

1093
00:46:11,470 --> 00:46:09,500
won't go into here whether that's an

1094
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:11,480
accurate description of events using the

1095
00:46:15,970 --> 00:46:14,089
divine agency interpretation in relation

1096
00:46:17,769 --> 00:46:15,980
to such events as finding surviving

1097
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:17,779
people under the ruins after an

1098
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:20,210
earthquake or the lost kid in Japan is

1099
00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:24,319
logically problematic if it is divine

1100
00:46:28,450 --> 00:46:26,150
agency that saves a handful of people

1101
00:46:30,609 --> 00:46:28,460
from the ruins and surely it is divine

1102
00:46:31,769 --> 00:46:30,619
agency that sent the other 200-thousand

1103
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:31,779
to their deaths

1104
00:46:35,769 --> 00:46:33,650
apparently the Lord giveth with

1105
00:46:39,130 --> 00:46:35,779
restraint and taketh away by the

1106
00:46:41,769 --> 00:46:39,140
bucketful the other problem with divine

1107
00:46:44,410 --> 00:46:41,779
agency in such cases is that it ignores

1108
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:44,420
even denies the efforts of masses of

1109
00:46:48,249 --> 00:46:46,240
real-life people working to create

1110
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:48,259
outstanding achievements using

1111
00:46:53,070 --> 00:46:50,690
remarkable efforts with their bare hands

1112
00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:53,080
if it's and persist

1113
00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:55,430
that's the divine apparently looks down

1114
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,250
with disdain on the little people being

1115
00:47:02,530 --> 00:47:00,400
given credit for what he/she did not do

1116
00:47:05,110 --> 00:47:02,540
unless of course you believed that the

1117
00:47:08,140 --> 00:47:05,120
divine entity worked within the rescuers

1118
00:47:09,580 --> 00:47:08,150
they were the Divine's instrument but

1119
00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:09,590
that just brings you back to divine

1120
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:11,540
powers and divine responsibility for the

1121
00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:14,450
natural disaster or cancer condition or

1122
00:47:19,780 --> 00:47:16,910
fatal car crash in the first place or

1123
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:19,790
the kid lost in the forest the human

1124
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:23,450
element is lost Joe Nickell has similar

1125
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:25,730
problems with miracles what they are how

1126
00:47:31,150 --> 00:47:27,770
to define them can you study them

1127
00:47:33,370 --> 00:47:31,160
scientifically and do they exist in his

1128
00:47:34,990 --> 00:47:33,380
book the science of miracles he finds

1129
00:47:37,210 --> 00:47:35,000
issue with the argument from ignorant

1130
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:37,220
situation well if you don't know why

1131
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:38,690
something happened that it must be God

1132
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:41,330
and the follow-up question if it is the

1133
00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:43,430
hand of God involved and whose God are

1134
00:47:47,470 --> 00:47:45,830
we talking about Nicholas of course one

1135
00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:47,480
of the most famous investigators of the

1136
00:47:51,130 --> 00:47:49,640
paranormal in the world today having

1137
00:47:52,810 --> 00:47:51,140
spent almost 50 years looking at

1138
00:47:55,180 --> 00:47:52,820
everything from unknown creatures and

1139
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:55,190
strange artifacts to weird constructions

1140
00:47:59,980 --> 00:47:57,680
and miracles he says that his approach

1141
00:48:02,590 --> 00:47:59,990
has been to avoid quote putting the

1142
00:48:05,290 --> 00:48:02,600
proverbial cart before the horse that is

1143
00:48:07,690 --> 00:48:05,300
I have refused to decide antecedent to

1144
00:48:10,420 --> 00:48:07,700
inquiry whether or not a miracle could

1145
00:48:12,850 --> 00:48:10,430
exist I have therefore tried to avoid

1146
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:12,860
the approach of believers and debunkers

1147
00:48:17,110 --> 00:48:15,410
who may start with a desired or expected

1148
00:48:20,050 --> 00:48:17,120
answer and work backwards to the

1149
00:48:21,220 --> 00:48:20,060
evidence in other words starting with

1150
00:48:23,650 --> 00:48:21,230
the conclusion and then finding

1151
00:48:25,870 --> 00:48:23,660
something to support it this means

1152
00:48:27,850 --> 00:48:25,880
investigating specific cases quote

1153
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:27,860
trying to discover the best evidence and

1154
00:48:32,530 --> 00:48:30,290
let it lead to the most likely solution

1155
00:48:36,070 --> 00:48:32,540
using established principles of

1156
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:36,080
scientific inquiry now it would be

1157
00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:38,240
churlish not to admit that that process

1158
00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:40,580
has in most if not all of Nichols

1159
00:48:45,370 --> 00:48:42,200
investigations led to the conclusion

1160
00:48:48,420 --> 00:48:45,380
that a man-made explanation is much more

1161
00:48:51,610 --> 00:48:48,430
likely than a paranormal or divine one

1162
00:48:53,710 --> 00:48:51,620
this book subtitle is investigating the

1163
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:53,720
incredible and he does say in his

1164
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:55,730
introduction that we should check our

1165
00:49:00,610 --> 00:48:58,000
emotions and rely on reason and evidence

1166
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:00,620
seeing as I have long held that the

1167
00:49:05,890 --> 00:49:02,450
progress of science is a series of

1168
00:49:06,430 --> 00:49:05,900
solved mysteries the results of his

1169
00:49:08,859 --> 00:49:06,440
endeavors

1170
00:49:11,859 --> 00:49:08,869
the solved mysteries therefore may not

1171
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:11,869
be that surprising to skeptics in the

1172
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:13,609
past it has been described as a miracle

1173
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:16,130
detective and miracles have played a big

1174
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:17,960
part in his career both as an

1175
00:49:22,750 --> 00:49:20,690
investigator and as an author his first

1176
00:49:26,109 --> 00:49:22,760
book was inquest on the Shroud of Turin

1177
00:49:27,579 --> 00:49:26,119
and that came out in 1992 and that's a

1178
00:49:30,970 --> 00:49:27,589
topic that he says has proved to be a

1179
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:30,980
millstone to him as he has had to return

1180
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:32,960
to it time and again called upon to

1181
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:34,970
react to the latest claim of miraculous

1182
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:37,280
conclusions since then he is authored

1183
00:49:41,349 --> 00:49:38,210
looking for a miracle

1184
00:49:43,740 --> 00:49:41,359
weeping icons relic stigmata visions and

1185
00:49:46,690 --> 00:49:43,750
healing hewers and relics of the Christ

1186
00:49:49,390 --> 00:49:46,700
his latest book the science of miracles

1187
00:49:51,460 --> 00:49:49,400
actually came out in 2013 but is a

1188
00:49:53,770 --> 00:49:51,470
summation of all that has gone before in

1189
00:49:56,620 --> 00:49:53,780
Nichols investigations and is a primer

1190
00:49:58,740 --> 00:49:56,630
on religious phenomena he divides it

1191
00:50:01,500 --> 00:49:58,750
into six sections miraculous effigies

1192
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:01,510
magical relics miracle healings

1193
00:50:07,450 --> 00:50:04,640
visionary experiences saintly powers and

1194
00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:07,460
the devil's work the last covering a

1195
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,380
range of satanic phenomena from

1196
00:50:13,779 --> 00:50:11,599
footprints to possessions and hauntings

1197
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:13,789
each of these sections is subdivided

1198
00:50:18,940 --> 00:50:16,130
into specific cases giving 57

1199
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:18,950
particularly quote miraculous phenomena

1200
00:50:25,390 --> 00:50:21,200
to investigate let's look at one of

1201
00:50:26,740 --> 00:50:25,400
those the miracle of Fatima most readers

1202
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:26,750
will know that this involves three

1203
00:50:30,490 --> 00:50:28,640
Portuguese children who witnessed in one

1204
00:50:33,819 --> 00:50:30,500
way or another a vision of Mary

1205
00:50:35,769 --> 00:50:33,829
Magdalene in 1917 on the 13th to the

1206
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:35,779
next six months they saw and for at

1207
00:50:39,370 --> 00:50:37,250
least one of the children talked with a

1208
00:50:41,410 --> 00:50:39,380
figure increasingly large crowds

1209
00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:41,420
gathered to witness if not the vision

1210
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:43,700
and associated manifestations such as

1211
00:50:49,140 --> 00:50:46,460
the Sun dancing rain soaked ground

1212
00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:49,150
subtly drying and a fall of petals

1213
00:50:53,230 --> 00:50:51,200
different people describe different

1214
00:50:54,609 --> 00:50:53,240
things and on one month the children

1215
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:54,619
were kept away by authorities for

1216
00:50:59,710 --> 00:50:57,440
questioning though Nichols doesn't say

1217
00:51:02,380 --> 00:50:59,720
what if any manifestations occurred on

1218
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:02,390
that occasion at the same time as the

1219
00:51:07,329 --> 00:51:04,880
visions mary magdalene gave the oldest

1220
00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:07,339
child would share three secrets they

1221
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:09,680
were only revealed later the first two

1222
00:51:13,839 --> 00:51:11,450
several years after the events that were

1223
00:51:15,940 --> 00:51:13,849
predicted the first a vision of hell and

1224
00:51:18,279 --> 00:51:15,950
the premature death for the two youngest

1225
00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:18,289
children and a second the end of World

1226
00:51:21,650 --> 00:51:19,430
War one

1227
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:21,660
Nicoll appeared in the documentary when

1228
00:51:26,749 --> 00:51:24,720
the third secret was revealed in 2000 by

1229
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:26,759
the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and

1230
00:51:32,180 --> 00:51:30,720
later pope benedict xvi it turned out

1231
00:51:33,650 --> 00:51:32,190
that this was a rambling vision that

1232
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:33,660
depicted among other things a

1233
00:51:38,269 --> 00:51:35,970
sword-wielding angel Mary coming to the

1234
00:51:41,749 --> 00:51:38,279
rescue and a bishop killed by soldiers

1235
00:51:43,339 --> 00:51:41,759
with bullets and arrows Nikol spends as

1236
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:43,349
much time at the background of lechia

1237
00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:45,000
the influential leader of the children

1238
00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:47,670
and the secrets as he does on the

1239
00:51:52,009 --> 00:51:49,980
visions themselves he looks at Lucia's

1240
00:51:54,109 --> 00:51:52,019
background which included her prevision

1241
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:54,119
performances dancing and singing in

1242
00:51:58,609 --> 00:51:56,250
public and telling stories of quote

1243
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:58,619
fairy tales biblical narratives and

1244
00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:00,960
Saints legend which made her popular

1245
00:52:06,620 --> 00:52:03,089
with village children and the ability to

1246
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:06,630
pressure others to do her bidding this

1247
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:07,890
might give an impression of a child

1248
00:52:13,609 --> 00:52:10,170
being a tad more consciously and coldly

1249
00:52:15,499 --> 00:52:13,619
manipulative then lechia perhaps was but

1250
00:52:18,410 --> 00:52:15,509
a telling part of the tale are her

1251
00:52:20,740 --> 00:52:18,420
visions of a snow-white figure on at

1252
00:52:23,809 --> 00:52:20,750
least three occasions and later an angel

1253
00:52:26,569 --> 00:52:23,819
these happening years before the Fatima

1254
00:52:28,430 --> 00:52:26,579
visions Nikol also points out the

1255
00:52:31,069 --> 00:52:28,440
Lucia's mother described the children's

1256
00:52:34,099 --> 00:52:31,079
narrative as childish nonsense and

1257
00:52:37,220 --> 00:52:34,109
lechia herself is nothing but a fake who

1258
00:52:39,470 --> 00:52:37,230
is leading half the world astray an

1259
00:52:41,329 --> 00:52:39,480
issue with the Phantom stories as with

1260
00:52:44,059 --> 00:52:41,339
many claimed miracles and manifestations

1261
00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:44,069
from the past is the reliability of

1262
00:52:48,890 --> 00:52:46,920
witnesses Nikol points this out in

1263
00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:48,900
reference to the accounts by members of

1264
00:52:53,390 --> 00:52:51,150
the crowd who witnessed the Sun dancing

1265
00:52:56,839 --> 00:52:53,400
etc accounts that were given both at the

1266
00:52:59,059 --> 00:52:56,849
time and later often much later but he

1267
00:53:01,160 --> 00:52:59,069
does need to rely on the descriptions as

1268
00:53:02,809 --> 00:53:01,170
retold by investigators who have looked

1269
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:02,819
at the miracles at a great distance in

1270
00:53:08,029 --> 00:53:05,970
time from the actual events Nikol has

1271
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:08,039
broad experience of many claims having

1272
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:10,529
investigated them personally on-site and

1273
00:53:15,019 --> 00:53:12,720
at the time but in many of the cases

1274
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:15,029
described here he relies on third-party

1275
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:18,240
assessments this is unavoidable whether

1276
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:20,400
some like Avila this the apparent

1277
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:22,170
inconsistencies of the eyewitness

1278
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,450
accounts the past histories of those

1279
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:26,400
involved and in this case the fact that

1280
00:53:29,660 --> 00:53:27,660
the secrets were written down and

1281
00:53:32,029 --> 00:53:29,670
revealed much later than the events they

1282
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:32,039
foretold are enough evidence to cast

1283
00:53:35,220 --> 00:53:33,130
doubt at least

1284
00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:35,230
over the miracles if not to dismiss them

1285
00:53:40,140 --> 00:53:38,500
entirely Nikhil sift through the

1286
00:53:43,289 --> 00:53:40,150
evidence and comes to the conclusion

1287
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:43,299
that where he finishes by saying that

1288
00:53:46,499 --> 00:53:44,950
debate on the Fatima visions will

1289
00:53:48,089 --> 00:53:46,509
continue that is somewhat disappointing

1290
00:53:49,980 --> 00:53:48,099
but probably in line with proper

1291
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:49,990
scientific method we have a good

1292
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:52,000
indication of probability but absolute

1293
00:53:57,450 --> 00:53:54,730
100 percent certainty is elusive and

1294
00:53:59,819 --> 00:53:57,460
perhaps unobtainable in his relating of

1295
00:54:02,430 --> 00:53:59,829
the Fatima miracle Nikhil does not get

1296
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:02,440
into the grey Nia's detail 7 pages is

1297
00:54:06,329 --> 00:54:04,210
devoted to that particular miracle and

1298
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:06,339
it's hardly enough for that and to do

1299
00:54:08,220 --> 00:54:07,630
that would require a whole book in its

1300
00:54:10,740 --> 00:54:08,230
own right

1301
00:54:12,839 --> 00:54:10,750
and there have been many of those in

1302
00:54:14,670 --> 00:54:12,849
this chapter as in the others he gives a

1303
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:14,680
summary of the events witness accounts

1304
00:54:20,339 --> 00:54:16,690
and the background to put the miracle in

1305
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:20,349
context he assesses the evidence often

1306
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:22,410
resting on theories of contagion

1307
00:54:26,670 --> 00:54:24,490
proliferation of accounts that build on

1308
00:54:28,609 --> 00:54:26,680
each other sharing details that were not

1309
00:54:31,410 --> 00:54:28,619
part of original depictions and

1310
00:54:33,930 --> 00:54:31,420
retrofitting fitting original claims to

1311
00:54:36,509 --> 00:54:33,940
later but past events in a sometimes

1312
00:54:38,940 --> 00:54:36,519
desperate attempt to prove a paranormal

1313
00:54:41,849 --> 00:54:38,950
ability much as those supporting

1314
00:54:44,089 --> 00:54:41,859
Nostradamus as suppose predictions we've

1315
00:54:46,170 --> 00:54:44,099
a tenuous relationship between vague

1316
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:46,180
prognostications and current occurrences

1317
00:54:50,220 --> 00:54:48,160
they often apply with equal conviction

1318
00:54:54,599 --> 00:54:50,230
two different occurrences over periods

1319
00:54:56,999 --> 00:54:54,609
of time Nikhil writes as he always does

1320
00:54:58,999 --> 00:54:57,009
clearly and concisely they're not

1321
00:55:01,230 --> 00:54:59,009
exactly with a great deal of humor

1322
00:55:02,460 --> 00:55:01,240
dispassionate scientific investigation

1323
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:02,470
property doesn't allow that

1324
00:55:06,029 --> 00:55:04,450
could he have covered more miracles in

1325
00:55:08,220 --> 00:55:06,039
this book certainly that would make it

1326
00:55:10,529 --> 00:55:08,230
encyclopedia and we said he wrote this

1327
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:10,539
as a primer an overview of the 50-plus

1328
00:55:14,849 --> 00:55:12,910
most famous cases and covers a broad

1329
00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:14,859
range from devil footprints in 19th

1330
00:55:19,890 --> 00:55:17,140
century Devon to the Book of Mormon and

1331
00:55:21,089 --> 00:55:19,900
raising the dead and he's recommended

1332
00:55:23,069 --> 00:55:21,099
and will hopefully lead you to look at

1333
00:55:24,990 --> 00:55:23,079
his other books those which take a

1334
00:55:26,849 --> 00:55:25,000
similarly broad review as this one and

1335
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,859
those which look more closely at

1336
00:55:31,740 --> 00:55:29,200
specific cases including Nichols

1337
00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:31,750
millstone of the Shroud of Turin on a

1338
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:33,910
final note it is interesting to recount

1339
00:55:38,190 --> 00:55:35,650
one case where nickel plays an active

1340
00:55:41,519 --> 00:55:38,200
role this is the film the reaping

1341
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,529
released in 2007 and which features an

1342
00:55:46,380 --> 00:55:43,359
investigator that Nichols says was based

1343
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:46,390
on him at the film centers around an

1344
00:55:49,260 --> 00:55:47,050
exhibition

1345
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:49,270
who loses their faith finds their faith

1346
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:51,520
and fights a replay of the biblical ten

1347
00:55:56,550 --> 00:55:54,640
plagues in the bayous of Louisiana and

1348
00:55:58,020 --> 00:55:56,560
who's also a woman means that it's not

1349
00:56:00,570 --> 00:55:58,030
exactly an accurate depiction of his

1350
00:56:02,730 --> 00:56:00,580
life Nikol was a consultant to the film

1351
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:02,740
visiting the set and meeting the real

1352
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:03,510
him

1353
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:06,610
represented by Hilary Swank he later

1354
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:08,770
told the 14 times surely one of the more

1355
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:10,720
enjoyable publications in the paranormal

1356
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:13,390
field that I liked the first 10 or 15

1357
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:15,220
minutes where the character seemed to be

1358
00:56:19,260 --> 00:56:17,920
doing something similar to what I do but

1359
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:19,270
then it changed into the world of the

1360
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:20,050
supernatural

1361
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:21,970
which for good or evil has never

1362
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:24,400
happened to me I've never had frogs rain

1363
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:26,890
down upon me the film has generally been

1364
00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:29,170
panned by critics that one could

1365
00:56:33,390 --> 00:56:31,150
unkindly suggest that its actual release

1366
00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:33,400
was something of a miracle in its own

1367
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:37,960
right that's being book review called

1368
00:56:47,340 --> 00:56:40,000
the hand of God that appeared in a

1369
00:56:49,350 --> 00:56:47,350
skeptic magazine June 2016 and you can

1370
00:56:51,030 --> 00:56:49,360
download that issue and many more issues

1371
00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:51,040
of the skeptic magazine from our web

1372
00:56:59,370 --> 00:56:56,470
site www.kpbs.org/news/evening and

1373
00:57:01,170 --> 00:56:59,380
scroll down and you'll find 39 years

1374
00:57:05,590 --> 00:57:01,180
worth of skeptical publications for you

1375
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:22,660
[Music]

1376
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:25,250
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1377
00:57:31,250 --> 00:57:28,250
zone with richardsaunders

1378
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:31,260
hey Celeste your word today yeah thank

1379
00:57:35,390 --> 00:57:32,970
you very much for being the co-host this

1380
00:57:37,069 --> 00:57:35,400
week now of course you're uh you're

1381
00:57:39,890 --> 00:57:37,079
quite used to being a co-host because

1382
00:57:42,740 --> 00:57:39,900
you co-host the fabulous podcast

1383
00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:42,750
squaring the strange with Pascale and

1384
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:45,599
Ben yes and you know I still feel like a

1385
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:48,210
rookie every week because I mean as you

1386
00:57:51,849 --> 00:57:49,650
well know there's always some new

1387
00:57:55,700 --> 00:57:51,859
problem that crops up with podcasting

1388
00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:55,710
technology or internet connections or

1389
00:58:00,109 --> 00:57:58,020
what have you so every week it's an

1390
00:58:01,430 --> 00:58:00,119
adventure tonight actually we're doing

1391
00:58:04,220 --> 00:58:01,440
something special that we've never done

1392
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:04,230
before it kind of inspired by the free

1393
00:58:09,319 --> 00:58:06,210
time that people are experiencing during

1394
00:58:12,260 --> 00:58:09,329
this isolation period we're gonna be

1395
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,270
having a watch party where people people

1396
00:58:17,299 --> 00:58:14,160
can join us and watch a terrible

1397
00:58:23,020 --> 00:58:17,309
terrible Mexican movie about a

1398
00:58:28,609 --> 00:58:26,720
okay yes it sounds like there's a whole

1399
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:28,619
lot of interesting twists and turns and

1400
00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:30,690
the chupacabra ends up at a strip club

1401
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:33,780
and I can't wait to see this show now

1402
00:58:39,260 --> 00:58:35,490
how long is squaring the strange being

1403
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:39,270
on the air on the internet ah three

1404
00:58:43,339 --> 00:58:41,730
years now it's just it's we just

1405
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:43,349
celebrated our third anniversary yeah

1406
00:58:46,339 --> 00:58:45,089
and I've been having a fun time there's

1407
00:58:48,079 --> 00:58:46,349
there's just no shortage of topics

1408
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:48,089
there's a lot of strange things out

1409
00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:48,480
there

1410
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:51,510
yeah and just recently because I always

1411
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:53,910
listen to a skeptical podcast or two

1412
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:55,530
when I'm doing my government-authorized

1413
00:58:59,299 --> 00:58:57,839
daily works I listen to the latest

1414
00:59:01,520 --> 00:58:59,309
episode of squaring the strange which

1415
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:01,530
was sort of an anniversary episode but

1416
00:59:04,849 --> 00:59:03,119
the two episodes before that were

1417
00:59:07,370 --> 00:59:04,859
two-part special all about psychic

1418
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:07,380
detectives yes that was very important

1419
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:09,690
to bend to to get us all involved in

1420
00:59:15,740 --> 00:59:12,480
doing a bit of a real-time investigation

1421
00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:15,750
into psychic detectives which you are no

1422
00:59:19,819 --> 00:59:17,430
stranger to you've been spending a lot

1423
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:19,829
of time tracking psychic predictions and

1424
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:22,170
yeah what comes true and what absolutely

1425
00:59:27,410 --> 00:59:25,200
does not yeah I certainly have it it's

1426
00:59:27,799 --> 00:59:27,420
at endless fascinating rabbit hole oh

1427
00:59:30,550 --> 00:59:27,809
really

1428
00:59:32,770 --> 00:59:30,560
yes so that folks I can recommend

1429
00:59:34,270 --> 00:59:32,780
you after you listen to the skeptics and

1430
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:34,280
of course you go and check out if you've

1431
00:59:38,730 --> 00:59:36,890
not already squaring the strange it's

1432
00:59:42,250 --> 00:59:38,740
one of certainly one of the better

1433
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:42,260
podcasts in the podcast world when you

1434
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:43,970
consider there must be tens of thousands

1435
00:59:47,620 --> 00:59:45,890
of podcasts now that's one I would

1436
00:59:49,630 --> 00:59:47,630
certainly recommend well thank you

1437
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:49,640
Richard and and I think there's gonna be

1438
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:51,710
many more after this pandemic is over I

1439
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:54,260
think you'll find that probably a half

1440
00:59:58,270 --> 00:59:56,450
the continent will have taken up

1441
01:00:00,370 --> 00:59:58,280
podcasting in one form or another oh

1442
01:00:02,470 --> 01:00:00,380
that's right maybe we should just quit

1443
01:00:04,450 --> 01:00:02,480
our podcast and become consultants what

1444
01:00:10,690 --> 01:00:04,460
do you think ah good idea we could

1445
01:00:12,460 --> 01:00:10,700
charge it'll be a pyramid scheme there's

1446
01:00:14,590 --> 01:00:12,470
a nice pyramid in Las Vegas I remember

1447
01:00:18,100 --> 01:00:14,600
that now speaking of charging base

1448
01:00:19,780 --> 01:00:18,110
speaking of charging now we don't we

1449
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:19,790
don't charge for our podcasts of course

1450
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:21,890
but we do rely on the generosity of

1451
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:24,290
people who think they're worthy enough

1452
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:26,960
to chip in and contribute and I know

1453
01:00:31,390 --> 01:00:28,490
that you are squaring the strange

1454
01:00:32,860 --> 01:00:31,400
probably go that extra step further than

1455
01:00:35,140 --> 01:00:32,870
that the sceptics and you send out

1456
01:00:39,940 --> 01:00:35,150
little little packages to your

1457
01:00:42,070 --> 01:00:39,950
subscribers I love to send swag yes you

1458
01:00:43,570 --> 01:00:42,080
come up with little bundles of a few

1459
01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:43,580
things here and there that we send out

1460
01:00:47,530 --> 01:00:45,440
to regular patrons and and of course

1461
01:00:49,630 --> 01:00:47,540
you've got a nice setup with with PayPal

1462
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:49,640
so people can have multiple ways of

1463
01:00:54,340 --> 01:00:52,370
contributing to your podcast yeah I do

1464
01:00:56,050 --> 01:00:54,350
its PayPal or patreon and if you

1465
01:00:58,210 --> 01:00:56,060
subscribe at the skeptic zone at a

1466
01:00:59,740 --> 01:00:58,220
certain level at patreon then you do get

1467
01:01:02,140 --> 01:00:59,750
a little bit of swag I do send you out

1468
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:02,150
some goodies which might include some an

1469
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:04,160
origami Pegasus or a James Randi

1470
01:01:08,530 --> 01:01:05,330
autograph or something like that anyway

1471
01:01:10,180 --> 01:01:08,540
check it out at skeptic zone TV or

1472
01:01:11,620 --> 01:01:10,190
Celestia if they want to check out

1473
01:01:15,130 --> 01:01:11,630
squaring the strange where do they go

1474
01:01:17,590 --> 01:01:15,140
just type in squaring the strange to any

1475
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:17,600
of your podcast feeders and you will

1476
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,240
find us absolutely and I can recommend

1477
01:01:24,100 --> 01:01:22,640
that well thank you very much for being

1478
01:01:27,310 --> 01:01:24,110
the co-host this week this has been a

1479
01:01:29,620 --> 01:01:27,320
lot of fun my pleasure Richard and I

1480
01:01:34,420 --> 01:01:29,630
hope to see you in beautiful Las Vegas

1481
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:34,430
when what do we say when things get back

1482
01:01:38,350 --> 01:01:37,010
to normality yeah and if they don't I

1483
01:01:40,570 --> 01:01:38,360
might just be knocking on your door

1484
01:01:41,970 --> 01:01:40,580
looking for a new place to live in

1485
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:41,980
Australia

1486
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:43,910
that's the deal then we could do the

1487
01:01:48,250 --> 01:01:44,450
podcast

1488
01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:48,260
together all right but for this week

1489
01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:51,200
this is Richard Saunders and Celestia

1490
01:02:00,880 --> 01:01:57,890
Ward signing off you've been listening

1491
01:02:05,650 --> 01:02:00,890
to the skeptic zone podcast please visit

1492
01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:05,660
our website at WWDC because your nodes

1493
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:08,960
contacts and to access the bat catalog

1494
01:02:14,859 --> 01:02:13,010
of episodes going back to 2008 you can

1495
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:14,869
follow the skeptic zone podcast on

1496
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:17,930
twitter at skeptic zone visit our

1497
01:02:21,089 --> 01:02:20,210
facebook page or leave a review on

1498
01:02:23,770 --> 01:02:21,099
itunes

1499
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:23,780
you can also support the skeptic zone

1500
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:27,170
via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone

1501
01:02:32,260 --> 01:02:29,890
podcast is an independent production

1502
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:32,270
reviews and opinions expressed on the

1503
01:02:36,730 --> 01:02:34,400
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1504
01:02:38,570 --> 01:02:36,740
of Australian skeptics or any other

1505
01:02:49,310 --> 01:02:38,580
sceptical organisation

1506
01:02:54,180 --> 01:02:51,660
hello to the afterthoughts the people

1507
01:02:57,210 --> 01:02:54,190
who listened after the music here's this

1508
01:02:58,650 --> 01:02:57,220
week's easter egg what's that I thought

1509
01:03:01,710 --> 01:02:58,660
I heard an aeroplane that can't be right

1510
01:03:03,780 --> 01:03:01,720
every now and then I see one it's really

1511
01:03:05,790 --> 01:03:03,790
strange this week we got to play the

1512
01:03:07,260 --> 01:03:05,800
dice game Celestia Ward in Las Vegas is

1513
01:03:09,060 --> 01:03:07,270
going to roll the dice

1514
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:09,070
lots of dice not being rolled in Las

1515
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:11,050
Vegas at the moment and it's up to the

1516
01:03:17,310 --> 01:03:14,410
rest of us to use our psychic

1517
01:03:19,740 --> 01:03:17,320
predictions or real dumb luck to see if

1518
01:03:21,690 --> 01:03:19,750
we can predict what numbers gonna come

1519
01:03:24,030 --> 01:03:21,700
up now what sort of dice do you have for

1520
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:24,040
us this week's on I have some very

1521
01:03:30,270 --> 01:03:28,210
special area 51 themed dice I nicked it

1522
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:30,280
up on the way to California there's a

1523
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:32,410
little shop that sells a bunch of alien

1524
01:03:39,810 --> 01:03:35,410
themed products including alien jerky

1525
01:03:42,420 --> 01:03:39,820
and alien like soaps and perfumes and

1526
01:03:43,890 --> 01:03:42,430
and I got a pair of alien dice

1527
01:03:45,540 --> 01:03:43,900
so I'm they glow in the dark I think

1528
01:03:47,370 --> 01:03:45,550
you've got a pair just like this I do

1529
01:03:48,809 --> 01:03:47,380
some way yes yes you can pick one of

1530
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:48,819
these that possibly when you were in Las

1531
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:52,690
Vegas but I guess mine at a where I got

1532
01:04:00,380 --> 01:03:54,490
mine I got mine in the Albuquerque

1533
01:04:03,059 --> 01:04:00,390
Airport Albuquerque is kind of like a

1534
01:04:05,849 --> 01:04:03,069
neck-and-neck with like Las Vegas area

1535
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:05,859
51 stuff we both heavily capitalized our

1536
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:13,810
alien do this Richard dice or you want

1537
01:04:16,740 --> 01:04:16,210
to guess first or well what what we'll

1538
01:04:19,770 --> 01:04:16,750
do

1539
01:04:21,450 --> 01:04:19,780
it's excited isn't it yes okay so

1540
01:04:24,180 --> 01:04:21,460
everybody at home everybody at home

1541
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:24,190
walking the dog in the car actually

1542
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:25,599
you're not gonna meet in the car I know

1543
01:04:29,819 --> 01:04:26,910
some people are still in the car

1544
01:04:31,770 --> 01:04:29,829
everybody at home in the lockdown now

1545
01:04:34,140 --> 01:04:31,780
celesia is gonna roll the dice three

1546
01:04:37,260 --> 01:04:34,150
times three times and it's up to all of

1547
01:04:39,210 --> 01:04:37,270
us to try and predict what the number

1548
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:39,220
will be so I'm gonna kick off and I'm

1549
01:04:44,499 --> 01:04:40,930
gonna predict

1550
01:04:48,359 --> 01:04:44,509
five that's my prediction Celestia

1551
01:04:52,930 --> 01:04:48,369
please roll the dice rolling the dice I

1552
01:04:55,089 --> 01:04:52,940
got five no yeah it's got four little

1553
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:55,099
alien eyes and a little alien spaceship

1554
01:04:58,870 --> 01:04:57,170
in the middle for a five this is this is

1555
01:05:02,710 --> 01:04:58,880
a descent up folks I promise it right

1556
01:05:04,180 --> 01:05:02,720
quite real how about that okay I'm gonna

1557
01:05:06,489 --> 01:05:04,190
sponsor a trip for you to come over here

1558
01:05:08,799 --> 01:05:06,499
once things reopen so that you can win

1559
01:05:12,729 --> 01:05:08,809
some money all right all right what's

1560
01:05:14,999 --> 01:05:12,739
your next guess my next guess is - okay

1561
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:15,009
here we go

1562
01:05:21,009 --> 01:05:18,890
fell that happens to be - it fell off

1563
01:05:26,819 --> 01:05:21,019
over the fell off of the table and it is

1564
01:05:31,029 --> 01:05:26,829
on the floor and it is a 606 oh yeah I

1565
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:31,039
never mind okay one last time I'm going

1566
01:05:39,089 --> 01:05:34,910
to I'm going to predict I'm gonna

1567
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:39,099
predict a one one okay here we go

1568
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:43,130
it's a six again well you know I got off

1569
01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:44,170
to a great start

1570
01:05:51,519 --> 01:05:49,789
I really did so today's your hopes out

1571
01:05:52,989 --> 01:05:51,529
there so you'd get my hopes up I'm not

1572
01:05:55,719 --> 01:05:52,999
gonna get a Las Vegas and try my luck

1573
01:05:57,700 --> 01:05:55,729
after all - this week's winning numbers

1574
01:06:04,870 --> 01:05:57,710
if you're playing at home yeah five or